I have loved all of your posts re: your trip to Korea and Japan, and this was just as interesting as the previous ones. It's fascinating how our environment and the people around us nudge us in a certain direction with our style. As usual, I love everything you wear!
It was a pleasure to read this newsletter! I'll be reading the other one you mentioned here once I am on a work break. Social norms are so interesting. I enjoyed how you said you had to readjust once back to Toronto, it reminded of the month and a half I spent in Korea and Japan where I found everyone so polite - though Japanese and Korean express politeness very differently in my opinion. Once I was back in Europe, living between Italy and France at the time, I was appalled by the impoliteness. Things I'd consider annoying, but normal, had become 'extremely annoying,' and not normal after that trip. It took me a while to get back to the usual rudeness😂.
But one thing I kept from that trip is dressing roomier, and going for the longer hems for dresses. I buy more often than not jacket one or two sizes bigger to roll the sleeves, and play with proportions. One thing I also learn from that trip is the art of layering.
You were in Korea/Japan for 1.5 months? I’m so curious hear your thoughts about what you consider “polite” or impolite in Asian/Europe. I have things to say about this!
Oh I am curious, about what you have to say about this!
Yes. In both countries, politeness in services are top notch, eventhough it doesn't mean it is sincere. Being French, the standards for services are quite low compared to Korea and Japan, so it does influence my point of view. I now live down south Italy where people are very friendly and nice on a personal level. They also can be in services, but it really is nothing comapred to Korea and Japan. I have found Japanese to be maybe a little bit colder though still polite compared to Koreans. By the way what I mean by polite it is just a simple hello, or answering my question without rolling your eyes showing exasperation, so yes, my standards are very low.
In Korea, I travelled to Seoul, Daeju, Daegu, Daejon, and Busan. I got lost twice in Seoul and I asked my way to two men who literally brought me to where I needed to be when they probably could go about their day. Try this in Paris, and it will never happen. People would rather run away from you than being kind. In Jjimjilbang people were very friendly, and kept complimenting my skin and asking me which products I used (I was sorry I wasn't a beauty expert for I only use cocoa butter or coconut oil). Friends of friends took to heart to making me feel welcomed and at home, showing me around, paying attention to every little thing I said to make my stay memorable. I should mention that I can understand Korean and speaks it to a certain degree, so this often surprised as much as made people very friendly with me (especially older people) because they appreciated I made the effort to learn the language. The only annoying factor is that going to smaller towns, people having probably not seen a Black person, they always wanted a picture, and even if it was annoying at least they asked. I mention this, because I had a very bad experience with Chinese people who stalked me a whole afternoon while in Kyoto to get pictures of me. The situation escalated to the point that my best friend called the police because they did not have the understanding that I had the right to my privacy.
In Japan, I felt people were polite but it was more because of convention. Not that in Korea it wasn't the case, but I felt the ice was broken much more easily there than in Japan. People weren't coming towards me if they saw I was lost. When I got lost in Tokyo, I asked my way in broken Japanese to a police officer, and only then I understood he had seen I was lost before, but didn't dare coming to me because he was embarassed he couldn't speak English. Osaka, compared to Tokyo and Kyoto, was a completely different experience. It felt like I was in Busan. People and the city were more noisy, more welcoming, and friendlier. I spent two nights with people I met while visiting the city, and they were the nicest despite the language barrier.
I hope all is clear because I know I kind of mixed politeness and kindness.
I’m so impressed you understand and speak a little Korean! Where did you learn it? So one thing that sticks out to me in this long thread is that as visitors we tend to me more understanding and forgiving of things in the guest country. The flip side is that we feel safe to be are more critical of our own.
So when you speak of service politeness, in Korea, I agree that it’s not necessarily sincere and that the level of respect you show a customer or patron is embedded in the culture. Sometimes annoyingly so, like at stores thé SAs are really in your face, but has for sure declined. one thing that especially drove me bonkers insane this time around was that because so many businesses (restaurants, stores) have turned to ordering on screens, the workers often do not even acknowledge you or look at you. I would said anyounghasayyo and they literally dont respond. Like???? I sound like the oldest fart but cannot fathom that ever happening even 5 years ago. I would repeat myself and say it again quite loudly to startle the person into some manners lol. I found the Japanese more consistently polite - reserved but not ignoring. Grateful for your patronage, but not overly gushy.
Koreans are warm and hospitable, but also wary of people they don’t know. I think foreigners are treated more warmly bc they are safe; chances are you aren’t around long enough to negatively affect their life in some way. Eg I went on walks everyday through the hiking trails and I would say 9.9/10 wouldn’t look at me, even when we were like the only ppl on the trail within 500m-1km of each other. I haven’t seen a person in 10 mins, of course I’m going to look you in the eye and say hi. I would stop ppl to ask for something and some ppl actively kept walking. Ppl wouldn’t hold doors behind them - men especially, and especially for a woman. Ppl are just so busy and focused on getting where they need to go that they don’t stop to help. And completely opposite to Japan, Koreans are terrible queuers. They push and shove and are right up in your personal space.
I learned Korean after watching many k-dramas and then I'm currently improving it using an app called Eggbun. The courses there are really nice, it's a like a KTalk but to learn Korean.
That's true that we tend to be forgiving of the country we visit. In my case, when it comes to France, I might be much more critical because every return always means an i ssue with transport, a strike here and there, mixed with fantastic moments spent with friends and family. Also, living abroad for almost 15 years now probably makes me hyper aware of some things.
I absolutely agree with you that SA in Seoul are on your toes and it can quickly be annoying. But I must say I enjoyed my in-store experiences just because I saw it as another way to discover the country's culture - I am saying this because I usually hate shopping in-store.
I feel Seoul can give very polarizing experiences when it comes to politeness being the country's capital. There are so many people that it can feel dehumanizing, so I understand your comment about not saying 'annyeonghaseyo' and the screen in restaurants. It feels like they use technology to avoid human contact rather than improving the customer's and waiter's experience while keeping it warm and welcoming.
As for Japan, I agree they are more consistent with politeness. I didn't have any polarizing experience in Japan, and I went to three different cities. Osaka stood out because, the mentality felt quite different in the sense that people there felt way less shy, and happy to make you discover their culture. I wonder why there was such a difference between Osaka and Kyoto and Tokyo. I might have a look at the town's history.
Hi Emmanuelle. Love your comment. I have spent about 3 months in Singapore, about 2 weeks in Japan, and I lived in France for 2 years. Your statement "By the way what I mean by polite it is just a simple hello, or answering my question without rolling your eyes showing exasperation, so yes, my standards are very low." made me laugh out loud. Agree with all of your thoughts!
Hi Emmanuelle. I lived in Grenoble. I spent my third year there in University and then went back a year later to obtain a diplôme d'études approfondies in International Security and Defense. I loved every minute!
I am happy you didn't tell Paris (🤣) and I am delighted you loved every minute of it. You don't know how it feels to be a constant France promoter when our reputation ruins us haha.
Irene as a western-heritaged Californian who has lived in the Middle East for 15 years, YES. The eye takes time to adjust. The internal monologue too, it’s not a value judgement but just an observation. I now live in one of the most socially liberal MENA cities and countries and I do enjoy “the sun on my shoulders” as I often say - and sometimes, depending on the neighborhood, on my legs. I always feel as a guest and visitor (even if resident) it’s not my place to push the envelope, that’s for girls here , if they want.
Once I visited a city where it was really down to the neighborhood. I was wearing a dress like your Zara dress, as we drove in I worried I was too exposed and would feel inappropriate. As we entered the neighborhood where our hotel is, local women in the skimpiest bikinis had me feeling a bit matronly! It was truly a matter of crossing a street.
My lesson is be flexible, be ready, and be comfortable - and sometimes comfort and safety means blending in a bit more (and being conscious and choosing to stand out).
YES x2 and your final paragraph summarizes it well! If you don’t mind sharing (privately), I’m curious where you live now? I was born in the Middle East (Bahrain) and lived there until I was 6.
Thank you for another lovely newsletter. I love your "What I'm Wearing" posts--you have inspired some new treasures in my wardrobe over the last several months!
My absolute favorite thing--that I never would have found or considered without you-- is the Patou top with the gathered neck and bow (mine is sage green). I love it so much and it is complements galore when I wear it. I just need to integrate it a bit more in my wardrobe and not save it for special--you have helped me develop that mindset. Your posts have also introduced me to that great COS striped shirt and the Zara culottes. I've also been wearing my Arizona love pearl sandals way more due to your "What I'm Wearing" posts. Now I'm on the search for a good pair of square toed loafers based on how great your white ones look with so many of your outfits !
This was my treat to read tonight after I (finally!) finished the Substack I was working on writing! And what a treat it was. It's amazing how your eye goes back and forth with the times, surroundings, age you are/feel, etc. I am really not into feeling exposed, especially on top, and yet sometimes I myself loving all the recent sheer everything. Things that are maybe a little risky but don't show the actual skin. Anyway, thank you for the inspiration and exploration! XOXO
I have loved all of your posts re: your trip to Korea and Japan, and this was just as interesting as the previous ones. It's fascinating how our environment and the people around us nudge us in a certain direction with our style. As usual, I love everything you wear!
Speaking of, I’ve only been to Denmark and would love to immerse myself in Scandinavian culture and see what happens.
It was a pleasure to read this newsletter! I'll be reading the other one you mentioned here once I am on a work break. Social norms are so interesting. I enjoyed how you said you had to readjust once back to Toronto, it reminded of the month and a half I spent in Korea and Japan where I found everyone so polite - though Japanese and Korean express politeness very differently in my opinion. Once I was back in Europe, living between Italy and France at the time, I was appalled by the impoliteness. Things I'd consider annoying, but normal, had become 'extremely annoying,' and not normal after that trip. It took me a while to get back to the usual rudeness😂.
But one thing I kept from that trip is dressing roomier, and going for the longer hems for dresses. I buy more often than not jacket one or two sizes bigger to roll the sleeves, and play with proportions. One thing I also learn from that trip is the art of layering.
You were in Korea/Japan for 1.5 months? I’m so curious hear your thoughts about what you consider “polite” or impolite in Asian/Europe. I have things to say about this!
Oh I am curious, about what you have to say about this!
Yes. In both countries, politeness in services are top notch, eventhough it doesn't mean it is sincere. Being French, the standards for services are quite low compared to Korea and Japan, so it does influence my point of view. I now live down south Italy where people are very friendly and nice on a personal level. They also can be in services, but it really is nothing comapred to Korea and Japan. I have found Japanese to be maybe a little bit colder though still polite compared to Koreans. By the way what I mean by polite it is just a simple hello, or answering my question without rolling your eyes showing exasperation, so yes, my standards are very low.
In Korea, I travelled to Seoul, Daeju, Daegu, Daejon, and Busan. I got lost twice in Seoul and I asked my way to two men who literally brought me to where I needed to be when they probably could go about their day. Try this in Paris, and it will never happen. People would rather run away from you than being kind. In Jjimjilbang people were very friendly, and kept complimenting my skin and asking me which products I used (I was sorry I wasn't a beauty expert for I only use cocoa butter or coconut oil). Friends of friends took to heart to making me feel welcomed and at home, showing me around, paying attention to every little thing I said to make my stay memorable. I should mention that I can understand Korean and speaks it to a certain degree, so this often surprised as much as made people very friendly with me (especially older people) because they appreciated I made the effort to learn the language. The only annoying factor is that going to smaller towns, people having probably not seen a Black person, they always wanted a picture, and even if it was annoying at least they asked. I mention this, because I had a very bad experience with Chinese people who stalked me a whole afternoon while in Kyoto to get pictures of me. The situation escalated to the point that my best friend called the police because they did not have the understanding that I had the right to my privacy.
In Japan, I felt people were polite but it was more because of convention. Not that in Korea it wasn't the case, but I felt the ice was broken much more easily there than in Japan. People weren't coming towards me if they saw I was lost. When I got lost in Tokyo, I asked my way in broken Japanese to a police officer, and only then I understood he had seen I was lost before, but didn't dare coming to me because he was embarassed he couldn't speak English. Osaka, compared to Tokyo and Kyoto, was a completely different experience. It felt like I was in Busan. People and the city were more noisy, more welcoming, and friendlier. I spent two nights with people I met while visiting the city, and they were the nicest despite the language barrier.
I hope all is clear because I know I kind of mixed politeness and kindness.
Busan felt like Seoul 20-25 years ago. Less developed, less crowded (despite a population of 4m), so ppl were definitely friendlier.
I’m so impressed you understand and speak a little Korean! Where did you learn it? So one thing that sticks out to me in this long thread is that as visitors we tend to me more understanding and forgiving of things in the guest country. The flip side is that we feel safe to be are more critical of our own.
So when you speak of service politeness, in Korea, I agree that it’s not necessarily sincere and that the level of respect you show a customer or patron is embedded in the culture. Sometimes annoyingly so, like at stores thé SAs are really in your face, but has for sure declined. one thing that especially drove me bonkers insane this time around was that because so many businesses (restaurants, stores) have turned to ordering on screens, the workers often do not even acknowledge you or look at you. I would said anyounghasayyo and they literally dont respond. Like???? I sound like the oldest fart but cannot fathom that ever happening even 5 years ago. I would repeat myself and say it again quite loudly to startle the person into some manners lol. I found the Japanese more consistently polite - reserved but not ignoring. Grateful for your patronage, but not overly gushy.
Koreans are warm and hospitable, but also wary of people they don’t know. I think foreigners are treated more warmly bc they are safe; chances are you aren’t around long enough to negatively affect their life in some way. Eg I went on walks everyday through the hiking trails and I would say 9.9/10 wouldn’t look at me, even when we were like the only ppl on the trail within 500m-1km of each other. I haven’t seen a person in 10 mins, of course I’m going to look you in the eye and say hi. I would stop ppl to ask for something and some ppl actively kept walking. Ppl wouldn’t hold doors behind them - men especially, and especially for a woman. Ppl are just so busy and focused on getting where they need to go that they don’t stop to help. And completely opposite to Japan, Koreans are terrible queuers. They push and shove and are right up in your personal space.
I learned Korean after watching many k-dramas and then I'm currently improving it using an app called Eggbun. The courses there are really nice, it's a like a KTalk but to learn Korean.
That's true that we tend to be forgiving of the country we visit. In my case, when it comes to France, I might be much more critical because every return always means an i ssue with transport, a strike here and there, mixed with fantastic moments spent with friends and family. Also, living abroad for almost 15 years now probably makes me hyper aware of some things.
I absolutely agree with you that SA in Seoul are on your toes and it can quickly be annoying. But I must say I enjoyed my in-store experiences just because I saw it as another way to discover the country's culture - I am saying this because I usually hate shopping in-store.
I feel Seoul can give very polarizing experiences when it comes to politeness being the country's capital. There are so many people that it can feel dehumanizing, so I understand your comment about not saying 'annyeonghaseyo' and the screen in restaurants. It feels like they use technology to avoid human contact rather than improving the customer's and waiter's experience while keeping it warm and welcoming.
As for Japan, I agree they are more consistent with politeness. I didn't have any polarizing experience in Japan, and I went to three different cities. Osaka stood out because, the mentality felt quite different in the sense that people there felt way less shy, and happy to make you discover their culture. I wonder why there was such a difference between Osaka and Kyoto and Tokyo. I might have a look at the town's history.
Hi Emmanuelle. Love your comment. I have spent about 3 months in Singapore, about 2 weeks in Japan, and I lived in France for 2 years. Your statement "By the way what I mean by polite it is just a simple hello, or answering my question without rolling your eyes showing exasperation, so yes, my standards are very low." made me laugh out loud. Agree with all of your thoughts!
Hi Michelle,
Thank you for your lovely comment. I am glad you had a great laugh. We, French, could win the Olympics of prideful rudeness in my opinion ahaha.
Where did you live in France? Did you enjoy it?
Hi Emmanuelle. I lived in Grenoble. I spent my third year there in University and then went back a year later to obtain a diplôme d'études approfondies in International Security and Defense. I loved every minute!
I am happy you didn't tell Paris (🤣) and I am delighted you loved every minute of it. You don't know how it feels to be a constant France promoter when our reputation ruins us haha.
Irene as a western-heritaged Californian who has lived in the Middle East for 15 years, YES. The eye takes time to adjust. The internal monologue too, it’s not a value judgement but just an observation. I now live in one of the most socially liberal MENA cities and countries and I do enjoy “the sun on my shoulders” as I often say - and sometimes, depending on the neighborhood, on my legs. I always feel as a guest and visitor (even if resident) it’s not my place to push the envelope, that’s for girls here , if they want.
Once I visited a city where it was really down to the neighborhood. I was wearing a dress like your Zara dress, as we drove in I worried I was too exposed and would feel inappropriate. As we entered the neighborhood where our hotel is, local women in the skimpiest bikinis had me feeling a bit matronly! It was truly a matter of crossing a street.
My lesson is be flexible, be ready, and be comfortable - and sometimes comfort and safety means blending in a bit more (and being conscious and choosing to stand out).
YES x2 and your final paragraph summarizes it well! If you don’t mind sharing (privately), I’m curious where you live now? I was born in the Middle East (Bahrain) and lived there until I was 6.
Hey Irene! Smallish world :-). I’m in Lebanon.
The joy of travel, especially a longer trip which pushes you to adjust the eye and the mind.
And then back again 😉
Thank you for another lovely newsletter. I love your "What I'm Wearing" posts--you have inspired some new treasures in my wardrobe over the last several months!
Oh my pleasure! Do share your treasures!
My absolute favorite thing--that I never would have found or considered without you-- is the Patou top with the gathered neck and bow (mine is sage green). I love it so much and it is complements galore when I wear it. I just need to integrate it a bit more in my wardrobe and not save it for special--you have helped me develop that mindset. Your posts have also introduced me to that great COS striped shirt and the Zara culottes. I've also been wearing my Arizona love pearl sandals way more due to your "What I'm Wearing" posts. Now I'm on the search for a good pair of square toed loafers based on how great your white ones look with so many of your outfits !
Oh, this makes me so happy! Re the Patou, the brand Comb which I discovered in Korea this time around, may I gently suggest, takes a lot of inspo from Patou 🫠. If you want to add something similar, this is probably US$115 and they take orders on IG through DM http://m.combstudio.co.kr/product/detail.html?product_no=545&cate_no=44&display_group=1
Thank you! I love the black and navy combination!
This was my treat to read tonight after I (finally!) finished the Substack I was working on writing! And what a treat it was. It's amazing how your eye goes back and forth with the times, surroundings, age you are/feel, etc. I am really not into feeling exposed, especially on top, and yet sometimes I myself loving all the recent sheer everything. Things that are maybe a little risky but don't show the actual skin. Anyway, thank you for the inspiration and exploration! XOXO
I have so much to say about your newsletter today but will message you about 😉.
xo can't wait